Cottman,Crawford and the Jersey guy.
Two Brooklyn born gen X guys and a Jersey millennial shooting the shit. Talking about everything and anything. Ready to hear topic suggestions for future podcasts and feedback on those we have recorded. Follow and Like us on FaceBook & Instagram. Email: CCandNJGuy@Gmail.com
Cottman,Crawford and the Jersey guy.
When Home Hurts: Navigating Family Toxicity
What makes a family truly toxic, and how do we navigate these painful relationships? During Mental Health Awareness Month, we tackle this challenging question head-on with the help of our recurring guest Steve, a therapist who brings professional insight to our candid conversation.
The distinction between normal family friction and genuine toxicity becomes clear as we explore patterns that fundamentally disrupt family functioning. It's rarely about isolated incidents, but rather consistent behaviors stemming from untreated mental illness, substance abuse, or cycles of emotional harm. Many of us don't recognize these dynamics until adulthood, when we suddenly gain perspective and realize our childhood experiences weren't as normal as we once believed.
Our discussion takes a practical turn as we share strategies for managing relationships with difficult family members. Sometimes it means accepting their limitations and adjusting your expectations accordingly. As Steve wisely notes, "If you want to keep someone in your life, you have to know what you're dealing with." Other times, it means making the difficult choice to create distance for your own wellbeing. We explore both approaches with honesty and nuance.
Perhaps most powerfully, we examine how these family patterns perpetuate across generations—and how they can be broken. The personal stories shared reveal both the pain of toxic upbringings and the determination to parent differently. "I use the way I was raised as a blueprint of what not to do," one host confesses, while another speaks about ensuring his daughters "know how they want to be treated and loved." These moments of vulnerability highlight the possibility of transformation, even from the most challenging family origins.
Whether you're currently struggling with difficult family relationships or working to ensure you don't repeat harmful patterns, this episode offers both validation and practical wisdom. Listen, reflect, and remember: you're not alone in navigating these complex waters.
Hosted by: Cottman, Crawford & The Jersey Guy
Contact us: CCandNJGuy@gmail.com
Links & socials: https://linktr.ee/ccandnjguy
Welcome to Cotton and Crumple and the Jersey Guy Podcast. How's everybody doing tonight?
Speaker 3:All right, all right all right.
Speaker 2:Doing good, doing good.
Speaker 4:We got our friend Steve back on.
Speaker 2:Is it number four or number?
Speaker 4:five.
Speaker 2:Yeah four. I'm still waiting for my jacket.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we got to make it Like on SNL we're still working on it.
Speaker 4:We'll be the Alec Baldwin, like on SNL. No, we're still working on it. Yeah, it'd be the Alec.
Speaker 3:Baldwin on this one.
Speaker 2:yeah, it was still working, at least like a cameo in the picture or something like that.
Speaker 3:I just don't draw too good, so I can't make a jacket with the markers Next time. Yeah, funny. So what's going on? Fellas, everybody's good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're good. What's today's topic? Who? This is really Tom's topic.
Speaker 4:Tom's topic.
Speaker 1:He's the one who brought it up. He was the one who said we should do a topic on toxic family members.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think it's an important topic. I think we kind of he's parents, that kind of thing.
Speaker 3:So yeah, that's a good one for me to come back to, bro. That's why we have our guests with us. Yes, very helpful with that stuff.
Speaker 4:All right. So, for those who don't know, stephen is a therapist, so he always gives good insight on certain topics like this, so it's great to have him on for this part.
Speaker 2:So you see the sports of therapy. Yeah, tonight, tonight.
Speaker 4:We are going to have him back on, we're going to be talking about sports again.
Speaker 3:Uh, we, you know it's a fun topic for us to talk, for sure. So this will be, then that'll be sports therapy sports therapy. Right, there we go. Yeah, yeah, I think. I, I think, if you have, if, you have rooting for two different teams.
Speaker 2:You have a toxic. There's the. My wife was a Yankee fan. We'd have a toxic family.
Speaker 4:But when you say sports therapy, I think of like physical therapy.
Speaker 3:Well, it'll be mental therapy yeah yeah, yeah. Sports mental therapy, by the way, this is Mental Health Awareness Month. Oh, is it? Okay it is, so let's make sure we remain. I thought that was in June, so that's very important especially with this episode. But toxic family members we all have one I have probably several, me too, me three, yeah, we all do, we all do, but then okay, so what are we going to say is toxic? Well, yes, like, what would be? What would be the definition of a toxic? I would say benevolence.
Speaker 4:You know what I mean. Okay, you know what. I mean Okay, you know what I mean you know just not being you know kind Okay, it's more than just not getting along.
Speaker 2:It's more than just being, you know, like having siblings that have, you know, different views on life. I mean, a toxic family would be something that was really very destructive to the foundation of a family. Okay, you know whether it's a result of, you know, somebody's mental illness or substance abuse or abusive behavior. I mean, those are the big factors. Or all of the above or all of the above right I mean yeah, I mean, addiction is a diagnosable mental illness.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 2:You know, like having those things in the roots of the family really is where that toxicity would typically come from.
Speaker 1:Or even your new family, if you have an in-laws.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and you marry into a family where one of the parents is, you know, an alcoholic or a drug addict, or has a serious mental illness and it disrupts the ability to function in a productive manner your family. It bleeds in If you you know you marry into somebody and they're. You know your spouse's. You know your spouse's mom has always been abusive. You know that comes into your house. You know you deal with it. Now you deal with the relationship that your spouse has with her family.
Speaker 1:Something new to juggle in your life.
Speaker 2:You know going to dinner, you know going to holiday dinners they're not peaceful and quiet, absolutely you know, I always, you know, when, years ago, you know, I worked in in the recovery shield and worked in rehabs and we did a lot of stuff, you know, especially like around the holiday times there was like Christmas, thanksgiving, christmas and New Year's, like the Bermuda triangle of of dysfunctional families and and you had you know it's, it didn't age well, but we used to always talk about like everyone, everyone thought their family was going to be the Cosby's right, right, you know pre bill drugging and dating and raping people, but you know how that family was always presented, and the reality is is most families were like the Bundy's you know, or the, you know the, the, the drunk uncle who was, you know, fighting with you or something like that, or somebody stealing from everyone's pocketbooks.
Speaker 2:There was, you know, that was more. That was more what was realistic than that wholesome family, the Waltons.
Speaker 1:I guess that's better than I guess that's better than the Waltons, which is not you know, that's of course you know it's never going to be like that, you know. So I guess there are families who don't have as much, but they have something right we all do. I mean. I mean I, you know I could, as we're sitting here talking, I'm going through shit in my head. Oh yeah, of course, of course, just you know. Yeah, I mean rewind the tapes.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I feel like I, I would find it hard to believe that there would be like a family that exists, that is like, just like, like we said, the waltons are like you know, like everybody has their shit man, you know what I mean? Like there's always gonna, even if it's not the intermediate family. There's gonna be that like weird uncle, you know everybody's got the. I mean that's like the on, like that's like a, like an internet term now, like having like the uncle, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like that you know if we're talking like toxic families a toxic family, it really it invades you know I keep using the word functioning right, it invades the functioning of the family. We're not. Yeah, I think every family has their issues at times. I think I have a great family with my wife and kids but, you know, prior to them getting a little bit older, I don't think there's a vacation that I didn't say. I'm never going on vacation with you guys again.
Speaker 3:That became like the running joke, because they would do something.
Speaker 2:You know they would do something to piss me off. So, like you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that my family, you know when my wife and kids was toxic.
Speaker 4:We just we had her, we had our issues sometimes, yeah, right, right, but yeah, that's true, that's true, that's true. That is a big difference.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, of course, because I mean, like, for me, I've always thought of it as just this is how we grew up, this is just what it was. You know what I mean. This is what it was growing up in the neighborhood and you see the other families and you know the kids are, you know it, things that we said, the things that we did, you know the ass whoopings that were handed out. We never thought of it, as you know, being toxic with that uncle, like, ah, that's just how he is.
Speaker 2:And I'm supposed to be touched like that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, right, yeah, the thing is too is like when you're a kid, you don't have perspective. Right you don't say like well, this is how a family should grow well, this is how a family should grow.
Speaker 3:You just like oh this is doesn't everybody kind of yeah, exactly yeah, and I didn't find out that someone else later in life.
Speaker 4:And there you go right, or or when you're raising your own kid and you know, oh shit, wait, wait, something was not right about my childhood.
Speaker 2:How come you know trying to do my best to raise a child, yeah well, the worst thing is like you come from a dysfunctional family and you start dating somebody from a normal family and you're like, but like nobody gets smacked at dinner yeah, yeah, right, exactly, yeah like how come nobody's through anything?
Speaker 3:we threw anything, I mean what the hell's going?
Speaker 1:on here nice conversation, yeah right or even worse having a toxic you know dysfunction in your family and then marrying somebody or being with somebody who has a dysfunction in their family. So now and when you see their family, you're like holy shit, my family is good compared to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're like all of a sudden, my family's not the crazy, my family's not the crazy family anymore, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's funny, bro, I didn't. I didn't even think about that part word again. So now, when do you I guess we'll say, when you realize or think about your family and how toxic they may be, or just one or two of those people, do you end up cutting them off? Do you try to work with them? To you know, say this they can see the error of their ways, I guess.
Speaker 2:You know, I guess it depends on on what you want to do as the, as the person I mean. Like you know, I you know I had issues with my brother who recently passed away and fortunately we we were able to repair things and when before he passed away, and but I always wanted to keep him in my life and I always wanted to keep my niece and my nephew and my sister-in-law in my life and with my kids and you know.
Speaker 2:So you just kind of you make choices as to when you're going to see them and stuff like that. I mean, like there were times I avoided going to them because I knew if I went we would get into an argument. And I didn't want to get into an argument because we did better when we didn't see we did better when we didn't see each other sometimes you know, but I guess there's gotta be you know, I know when I work with with people was that was that me.
Speaker 3:No, it was Amazon. Oh, it was Amazon.
Speaker 2:So people from dysfunctional. I always say like you have to like, if you want to have, if you make a choice that you want this person in your life, then you have to accept their illness or whatever, whatever their issues are. You have to know what you're dealing with, right If you're, if you're, if you will. Just you know if, if your mom doesn't know how to show affection or praise to you, right, but you love her because she's your mom and you want to have a relationship, you have to know, going in, that when you're going to see her, you can't look for that stuff, right, cause you're not going to get that Right. You're going to tell her about your new job and your promotion and she'll be like oh, oh, okay.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:You can't do better than that. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, that was all you got. So you have to know who you're dealing with and what their limitations are. The same way, if you're dealing with somebody with addiction or somebody who steals from you, don't set yourself up, don't walk out of the room with your wallet on the table, because when you come back it'll be gone.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, and stuff like that, or empty, yeah, right.
Speaker 2:So just make sure you know what you're getting into, because it's important to have a relationship with our parents or our siblings, or you know our family, that we, you know that you want to love them. You want to have that relationship. You just you have to if you're the healthy one.
Speaker 4:You have to know what you're getting into, and you do that.
Speaker 2:You can't right once you do that like if you make a decision like I'm going to keep this person in my life and right and now I sorry, so I'm going to keep this person in my life. I know who they are, I know what they're about and I know all this stuff. It's like I kind of can't get mad when they do it, because I know they enjoy. You don't get mad, but you don't get mad at a baby for shitting in a diaper. It's what they do If they're 17 and they're shitting in their diaper that's a problem unless there's other issues there.
Speaker 2:So just make sure you know what your expectations are. That can make things a lot easier and limit your time. Limit your time You're not going to spend eight hours with somebody on a holiday. That kind of sets you off. But you can go for coffee afterwards you know, or something like that, and just kind of keep them involved and whatever way you're okay with.
Speaker 1:Right, right, I mean it. It also depends on how long it's been going on for too right, and how long have you been putting up for, and how long have you been doing that already? Because that happens too right, you're like okay, I'm done, now I'm going to set the rules and this is how it's going to be. Oh, you want to see the baby? Well, no, I'm not coming to you, you're going to have to come to me, you know, like then you get to the point where you smarten up and you're like all right, I'm not doing that anymore.
Speaker 2:You want to see him, you're going to come. If you don't, then you're out. Yeah, you're stuck, and I guess it also depends on you know what the issue is. Again, if you're dealing with, what are you going to do? You're going to keep them around, the same way, as you know, as they get older and they start. You know parents, you know if they have to go into nursing homes, they start battling dementia. Are you going to cut them off because they don't remember you anymore?
Speaker 3:Yeah, Well, I don't know, but then that would be different. That wouldn't be so much that they're toxic, it's a mental illness, like you said.
Speaker 2:It's just something that they can't even help, but still, mental illness can make the relationship toxic yeah.
Speaker 3:So because of the behavior, I never thought that Alzheimer's or something like that would be Well, only because it's.
Speaker 2:I just use that as an example.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:As far as like the behavior.
Speaker 1:Okay, certainly the reason is just the behavior. I would think it would only be worse or harder on you if you didn't have a good relationship with that parent in the first place.
Speaker 3:Right and then they got Alzheimer's. And now that makes it harder, because you already have animosity against them or whatever's going on.
Speaker 1:Or it could be the opposite way, and then you might be more tolerant of it. You know what I mean. You're like.
Speaker 2:I know that's not my dad, and there are times sometimes you just have to cut people out of your life because they're not they're just not healthy for you and and and you're not willing or able to accept what's going on. You're not willing or able to tolerate the behavior that they give back at you, and you're better off not having them in your life.
Speaker 2:I mean it's sad, but you deal with it and you move on and you live your life and you fill your life with people that needs, your needs, right, right, you know and you let the good relationships and the positive relationships and your life flourish.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and you don't want to keep doing that, because then you're going to have to hold yourself responsible at some point. Well, I think know it's.
Speaker 3:It's a act of self-preservation.
Speaker 4:You know what I mean is you know, you hear a lot of people, especially when you know people will go in no contact with, like maybe a parent or something like that. You'll hear people say well, you know, you only get one moment right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah whatever if they're gonna be toxic they're gonna be problematic, then, what are you gonna do know, and there's no way to fix it. Then what are you going?
Speaker 2:to do Right and listen. You know relationships with. You know the relationships that parents have with their kids has changed over the generations.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, I think, fortunately I mean we all have kids right, yes, right I mean like we're in the generation now where we're very open and affectionate to our children. And we tell them that we love them all the time, we do stuff with them. You know they're still our kids, but we're friendly with them and stuff like that Whereas you know like maybe our parents' parents or our grandparents, like it was, there wasn't that kind of relationship. Right, you know it was. You know I'm your father, I give you food.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, relationship, right, you know it was, you know your father, I give you food.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, there wasn't there wasn't.
Speaker 3:What do you mean? You want me to cuddle? You know what I love you.
Speaker 2:You know like I think that's, we evolved into that and I think that's great, you know I right, yeah, so we still have room for improvement and culture, cultures too like some cultures right now it's, it's the families, or just it's. It's very's colder, it's not as affectionate, and but they sort of you know that's just how they are, that's what they know, so it doesn't mean Eastern cultures or maybe you know Eastern European cultures, maybe.
Speaker 4:I don't know I'm trying to think of stereo.
Speaker 3:I'm a stereotype.
Speaker 1:But, you know, I don't know. I'm sure every place you go I'm stereotypical, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's way different than we do. Yeah, right, as far as how we deal with things.
Speaker 3:Because I mean for deal with things, because I mean for me half black and half rican, and on both sides there's. You know, we've always given love.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean it's always the hug and a kiss and the reviews and yeah I had all that stuff so more.
Speaker 4:There's probably more cultures that are like that than there are we. Just, I think the united states is kind of like in between, because we're we're like a melting pot of cultures, right, but like, right, but like. European cultures are like that, like you said, like, probably like, like latino cultures are like that, where like, but like I don't know. It's weird like some cultures are just like. They're like not warm it's yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, it doesn't mean.
Speaker 1:It doesn't mean that they don't love each other that's just how they operate, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's just the way you know, like they're more. You know, just being present is is considered, you know, yeah, like they're more.
Speaker 4:You know, just being present is is considered, you know, yeah.
Speaker 3:Cause I mean and now you're saying that, though, too because when my kids were in school and you know you had to go and give them lunch money Cause we forgot to give it to him in the morning, whatever I should over there and give him my you know, have my son come down to the office and he'd give me a hug and a kiss and I said, all right, boy, I love you, kid and whatever. And the ladies in the office stopped and I'm like is everything okay? They're like that is beautiful that the son tells you.
Speaker 3:I'm like because he's got no choice, because that's how I raised him. I'm his father, that's how I was raised, yeah. You give me love every time I see you and vice versa. Give me a hug and a kiss, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:You grew up in a Jewish household. Listen up until my parents. Besides my brother passing away in January, my mother passed away in March and my dad last May.
Speaker 3:Sorry bro.
Speaker 2:But prior to them, I mean, there wasn't a phone call that didn't end with I love you, right. So on both, on both parts, my dad was. I love you, boy, and you know and I do that with my, with my daughters and and you know I don't leave the house.
Speaker 2:You know, when they're both home, I don't leave the house without knocking on the door and telling them you know, I'm just running out, I love you, I'm going to work, I love you, it's oh, it's always, yeah, it's always there. I don't, I don't go to sleep without giving them you know, saying good night and telling them I love them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, and that's not every. I think I'd mention this. Maybe one of the other episodes I was on is there was one time my daughter was about like my younger daughter's, like around 10 or 11, and she and her friend were just like gonna go out to the park to play and and I said, okay, be careful, I love you. And then my daughter came back later and said, said her friend asked her is your dad tells you he loves you? And she was like yeah, all the time. So I never hear that yeah, so it doesn't mean, her parents didn't love her.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, they just don't, they don't say it yeah, right, and then it's like it's, it's like culture, like showing you know, you know, displaying affection, might be considered you know who knows the culture they come from.
Speaker 4:Weak or like just not like a thing, right yeah.
Speaker 3:You don't do that to the boys. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean even at 60,. You know, if I was down visiting, I'd give my parents a kiss goodnight, I mean it was just what. It wasn't even just what you did. It's what, like, you wanted to do. Right, it was like it was you loved, I was affectionate to them Anytime.
Speaker 1:I saw my aunts or my cousins when they came in from someplace, you know, usually it was from California or then, or we went to Maryland and every time you see someone you know, you always say hello. You have kids, you know, even your cousins. Whatever you know, it's just. It was just the way you were brought up, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like, even for us in Spanish culture, you ask I'm trying to say how to say it te pide bendición, you're asking for the blessing, the love. So you know, when you go and you see like grandma or whatever, say oh bendición, or grandpa, or whatever Right, or your parents like oh bendición. Now my kids, it didn't take with them, no matter how much I, you know, like yo, just what you have to say to grandma, just what you have to say to grandma or grandpa, they just it just never took, you know, and they would say it like in English, but they wouldn't say it in Spanish, that it was I'm like man. So of course, you know the parents are like you. Don't teach your kids that I'm like I try to teach them that.
Speaker 3:Only I can't beat it to them, you know. But yeah, even like, even still. I said I talked to my parents and it's that you know, asking for, like I said, just asking for, it's like asking for a blessing, you know Right, and yeah, I think that for me, I still hug my son and give him a kiss.
Speaker 3:Right, right, right. The like we said, you know being talking about toxic relationships. It's like, even with all that, when you had that, the negative, you still I can't stand you, but I love you, bendy. You know I'm saying it was like always that because I never thought of it as being toxic with certain behaviors okay, we want to love our parents, we want to love our children, right?
Speaker 2:we want to love our siblings, right? I mean, that's what we're, that's what we're taught, we're brought up to that and just it, just situate it's like repetitive situations that happen. That makes the relationship toxic. Okay, because it's. It's not somebody doing something one time right unless it's, you know, unless like your brother's, like banging your wife. Right, right, right, the first time you catch him like that can kind of do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, but like like just the behaviors, it's just, it's repetitive, and then we just kind of get tired of it. But you know, but you don't want that Like you don and I want to hate my parents Right.
Speaker 2:You know, like it's just a series of events that occur that you just kind of say, like this isn't right, I don't know why is this happening. And I bring it to you and I tell you like, hey, when you do this, I feel like this. And then they're like, well, screw you, I'm going to keep doing it anyway. That's when it becomes toxic, right, it's, you know. They keep, you know, saying hurtful things.
Speaker 1:Or they'll, and then if they drink or drug, then it's worse, right, because they can become more abusive.
Speaker 3:Right, because they're meaner, like that Right yeah, you know that old saying.
Speaker 1:I always believe that when someone says something when they're drunk 90% of the time.
Speaker 4:That's a Chinese proverb, like a drunk man's thoughts or a sober man's words. Right or a drunk man's words or a sober man's thoughts.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, write it backwards, exactly. So now, when you go with those toxic people in the family, do you tell them as you're cutting them off. You know what I mean. Like you know what. I don't want to talk to you anymore because you've done this, this and the third. I've had it up to here with that. You know what? Bye-bye.
Speaker 1:I just shut it down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, if you're making an effort I didn't have to say anything. If you're making an effort to try and repair the relationship or have open, honest dialogue with somebody and they're not responding to it, I think just at some point you just walk away. And what's the purpose of telling them? Well, like, sometimes, like we always like say, like I know what you're going to say, I'm going to read your mind. You say, well, I want to at least tell them what I think I want to get how.
Speaker 2:I feel, and you know at some point you're just you're not going to get the response that you want and it just makes things worse. So just walk away on your terms and if they can't figure it out, that's part of the problem too isn't it Right, like if I stopped talking to somebody who's toxic to me and they can't figure it out. One is they probably won't notice for a long time. Yeah, they probably won't notice that, like well, I haven't spoken to Steve in a while.
Speaker 2:Right, you know because because it'll a while and then they'll probably call you up or text you like hey, would you lose my phone number, or something like that, or is your phone broken, Like they won't sit back and say like, hey, you know what? I haven't spoken to Steve in a while? That's probably because I'm a shit to him.
Speaker 3:You know like they're not going to say that, but see, we also grow up in a time of where shooting the dozens was the funnies. You know I'm saying like we will sit there and we laugh and, just you know, get on each other and tell jokes. So then is your one friend who's quote-unquote better at it than you are? Would that be then considered the toxic? Because?
Speaker 2:but usually you're- telling somebody at some point, like, like you know, you're not just cutting them off, like you know, I, I think you should tell, should tell like, if it's you and I right, and like I'm the toxic person to you, at some point you should say to me hey, like you know, steve, like I don't, like when you do this, I don't like when you talk like this to me, I know you think you're joking and it's funny, but it's really hurtful to me, right?
Speaker 2:You tell me that once or twice. If I keep doing it, obviously I don't respect what you're saying, right? So then you make a decision or I realize oh wow, like I didn't realize, I didn't realize I was being that offensive, I'm sorry, and it and doesn't happen again. Right, but if it keeps happening, then I would just tell you to, just, you know, walk away and not even tell me, because I'm not listening to you to begin with right, right, right, and you know it also too.
Speaker 1:It's not only toxic with people that you had a relationship, but it's also people that you used to have ties to say like it's an ex or something like that, but you, it's something when you were originally dealing with them in the beginning and they would and whatever they would do, they would drink and they would get even more abusive and whatever, and you would just deal with it. And then, when you were apart, things got. You know, you split apart right Now. You got to deal with it that way and then you got the kids involved, right. So the one thing I had to learn how to do and it took me a while, but I figured it out was not to respond to whatever they say. The minute you go back and you get into that, they want you to come back at them so they can engage in that fucking that toxic thing.
Speaker 1:But when you don't give it to them, you, you, you solve them.
Speaker 4:Right, exactly, right, exactly.
Speaker 1:You really do, and and it feels better to do that honestly yeah, Than it is, I mean, than it is. I mean, of course it feels good to say something to somebody. Go fuck yourself. You want to tell them that, but but it doesn't do anything.
Speaker 2:Exactly you tell me to go fuck myself and I just say something back to you.
Speaker 1:But if I cut you straight off, that's going to do something.
Speaker 4:That's the other problem, too, is they're going to turn against you, and now you look what you do you cut them off Nothing.
Speaker 1:You don't give them anything, no matter what they say, what they write, whatever it is, you just do not respond.
Speaker 2:And Tom, you know Tom brought up a good point earlier was that when we're kids we just kind of go with the flow.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, we think everything is normal, yeah that's.
Speaker 2:I never got beat. I probably count on one hand the times that both my parents have ever spanked me or something like that. But you know, if you're you know you're a kid and your parents are beating you on a consistent basis, you don't like. You figure like well, they're my parents, they're allowed to do that, they're supposed to do that, whatever it's not until, or they talk, they irrationally punish me, or something like that.
Speaker 2:It's not until you get a little bit older and you have a little bit more experience, like you were saying, where you start realizing like that wasn't, like what they did wasn't cool. And you know, sometimes you realize like, well, maybe they just didn't know. Like you know, they did the best they can, they did all best they can, they did all that they knew, and it's not good enough for me. Now, and as an adult, you get to be responsible for your own life, right? So it's not about blaming your parents or your aunts or your uncles or stuff like that. It's about realizing okay, I was brought up in this environment. I was brought up in this environment and it wasn't healthy. I didn't like it.
Speaker 2:I can do something different about it now. I won't ever raise my kids like that. I'll be loving and supporting. I'm not going to use corporal punishment on them. I'm never going to lay a hand on them. I'm going to identify my feelings. I'm going to be verbal. I'm going to do all that stuff and if I can't do it by myself, I'm going to seek help to do that, because I don't want to be that person right.
Speaker 2:It's, you know, when you see it just become like a generational thing. It's people just not taking responsibility for, for what they can do for themselves today. Right, that's the big. It's never. It's not about blame, as in it's. It's kind of like as an adult we don't have the right to blame people.
Speaker 3:Oh, right Right.
Speaker 2:We don't have the right because we have the ability to make changes Right as a, as a child. We don't Mm-hmm. We don't, we don't have that You're responsible now. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no that makes sense. Yeah, I grew up in an alcoholic family. Okay, but there's treatment now. Right you can do something about your alcoholism. You can do something about your mental health issues. They have to, you know may struggle with it, but you can do something about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely, definitely can. Yeah, I get like you said. I get it now. I mean, it makes sense.
Speaker 1:You know, I really seriously didn't even, you know, think about it. I'm sure you grew up in the normal as far as, like in my house it was toxic Because my parents let's just put it this way the situation altogether was a fucking mess.
Speaker 1:Now when you look at it now, when I was in it and here's a good guy you were just saying I was in the middle of it and you know I had aunt barbara, mom and dad. Okay, if everybody can't figure that out, then yeah, but that whole time until I finally figured it out, I thought that was normal. I did right when I went to someone else's house. I'm like you know, I didn't know if someone came to my house. I didn't think about it as being something bad because I or you know whatever, right, but that's how it was. That's where I grew up, right? You know what I mean. But so, and that was toxic in itself. You doesn't necessarily have to be toxic in the sense where you're being, I mean, if I'm as far as something actually being done to you when there's the environment around you is toxic just because of the relationships going on in the house and things like that.
Speaker 2:And again, we think when we hear, when we use words like toxic, we think like explosive and everything's like that happens to them all. Right, yeah, but it doesn't have to be, it could just be. It could be real quiet because people don't talk.
Speaker 1:That too Right. That's a toxic environment.
Speaker 2:You know, it's just not Again. It's like that repetitive behavior that interrupts the functioning of a family.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 1:And you know you can get sucked into it. When I was with my first wife the toxic and her family alone, I mean we were both dysfunctional, we should have never been together. But but that is what it is, we are and we, you know we are, we are where we are. But when I look at it, and I look at just the fact that there was two people's worlds, I was saying earlier and it it collided. Now it's even more toxic. Now, right, so you're getting it from her family and my family and you know it's like, and then you get stuck in it Because, almost like you feel like you're trapped. There was a point where you were afraid to walk away or whatever. And then finally you know, and then you have to re-fucking, find yourself again. And of course, you're young, because I was super young when it happened. So, and again what you were saying earlier, I said people have it when they're young.
Speaker 3:They have no life experience. She didn't have any life experience, right? You don't?
Speaker 1:fucking know what to do and if your parents aren't telling you or getting it from somewhere else, maybe you did. Well, I'm sure you had like a good grandma or grandpa or somebody or somebody you that had more logic and treated you differently, like my grandmother. I loved her. My mother's mother was awesome. I had a great relationship with her. You know so that for her she was always kind and nice and loving to me and you know it wasn't like the yelling hey, fuck you, bob. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what was I'm thinking of that toxicity too. You know what I mean, on top of the yelling and the screaming.
Speaker 1:But some people you know. Like he said, obviously you can sit and not talk to. I've had that too.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and if you don't do something about it, you know you seek those kind of people in your life too, like if you find that normal, which is kind of what happened to you right, right, like you were brought up in that, in that environment, and you didn't realize how, how messed up it was and and who'd you wind up marrying right, your relation, your relationship was you sought somebody who just kind of fit that mold, right?
Speaker 1:you know it's like and that's just for my family being the way they were from that family.
Speaker 2:But it was just the same thing. But it's like right, you know. It's like if you, if, if you don't, if you don't think anything's wrong and you have an abusive parent, you're going to try and hook up with somebody who's kind of abusive, right, you know. So I always send my daughters the meme like my kids, my girls, are going to have the reverse of daddy issues.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, like they're going to know how to be, how they want to be treated and loved and respected and all that stuff.
Speaker 4:Right exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, expected and all that stuff.
Speaker 1:But yeah, if you don't think there's anything wrong, you're never told that's wrong, you'll find the same kind of people right, and then when you're out of it, you can kind of it takes time.
Speaker 2:You never realize how bad things are until you're out of it. And then you're like Like you start, like you're out of a toxic or chaotic relationship and it takes, you know, days and weeks and months to realize like, wow, like nobody's yelling at me, right like you know like I could put something simple as like I can leave something in the fridge and I get to eat it later right like people like people.
Speaker 4:Like people respect my stuff, yeah and you know what happens too sometimes with people is that they're so used to a toxic like family that they go to a normal family and they start creating chaos it's not normal, it's fucking, you know, this is the something's wrong here, they start creating chaos.
Speaker 1:I hear, you, hear that right, that's all, and they're supposed to say the fuck's going on, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Did you hear what did?
Speaker 4:you hear what he said to you. Because chaos is so normal to some people, because they live in a chaotic family, that they will create chaos, because it feels weird to have normalcy.
Speaker 2:Because normalcy isn't normal. It's uncomfortable. What is going on here? It's uncomfortable, it's super uncomfortable, like we're sitting at dinner and like we're just eating.
Speaker 4:Yeah, everybody's so boring. Nobody's throwing anything.
Speaker 2:Nobody's cursing anybody out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, nobody's talking junk to each other. That's funny.
Speaker 1:This family's boring and I have to say for me, like I said, I didn't know about it until I got to a certain age and the toxicity is between my parents and I didn't happen until I started getting older. It wasn't so much when I was younger like my teens and up, right, right, and then it got, then that whole thing, and then when I found out what the situation was about, then that of course wham was like you know, on top of everything, you know so, and then you're again, you're only a young person, right, you have no life.
Speaker 3:How do I deal with?
Speaker 3:this and you don't have nobody telling you right, and I didn't, definitely didn't think about therapy at that time yeah, I'm sure I was not thinking about it yeah, because definitely, I mean, I didn't realize even now, like I said, us talking about it, me thinking as we're conversing, I, I, to me, was just a real part of life. The only thing I do differently now, I think, is I don't argue, I hate to argue, I don't like all the yelling and whatnot. And there was only like my mom did you know? She did like to yell, she was like five foot, nothing and dude bro, I'm surprised.
Speaker 3:She should have been like an opera singer Shut up. You know what I mean. Like it was that shit just carried and you know. But even still, I just I think that right now that's the only thing I can really think of, that I try to do different is just not to argue.
Speaker 2:And just remember people like don't go look at your families and say they're toxic.
Speaker 3:They yelled at me no, no, no, definitely not.
Speaker 1:Like that's not, I'm not sitting here and we're not sitting here saying like look at your families and make them toxic. No, no, no and examine at your families and make them toxic and examine every behavior. That's not what it's just. I mean, we're having a good conversation, but we all have you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know if you cringe if you, if you crevice family events right If you avoid family events or you hate going to family events.
Speaker 2:If you, if, if you a teenager and you hear your parents' car door close because they're coming home and you're saying oh shit, they're home now and you're not doing anything wrong, right.
Speaker 3:You know stuff like that.
Speaker 2:If it's an occurrence, Right If you hear them walking right If every time your doorknob turns you're worried about something happening Right. Who's?
Speaker 4:going to yell at me.
Speaker 1:That's something to look at Then.
Speaker 2:But it's. Or if you're just like, is my family? Yeah, If you have to ask they're not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, if you're sitting in the car or something or listening to this and you're going, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, the Hammonds are for you, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's different, but don't make it to somebody.
Speaker 1:If you identify, then we're glad, because we're not alone.
Speaker 2:It's like if you have to ask how much something is, you can't afford it right if you have to ask is my top is my family, it's probably not, it's probably just yeah, you probably. Just.
Speaker 4:Everyone's struggling and everyone has bad days and then you know people bicker, you know it's, it's normal when you're living under one room and be like, oh, you can't put that toilet seat on right stuff like that.
Speaker 1:I think that's pretty lost his front teeth.
Speaker 2:My mother on a coffee cup holy jeez, I mean you can't, and especially when especially when one of your kids if your kids are like you like, if you have more like yeah, if, like, I have two girls, my younger daughter is me right so we battle all the time, yeah my wife, my wife just looks at hers. She's you. What do you expect? So I mean like yeah, so it's, it's crazy it is.
Speaker 4:It's just insane. Yeah, it is, it's nuts, though Like there's a difference between like arguing and like bickering. It's like ah, you know, next time you're upstairs can you shut the light off. You know, like I think that's pretty normal stuff.
Speaker 2:But next time, if you don't shut the fucking light off, I'm coming up there. Or you come up, I come up there with a bat and say you don't want to shut the light off.
Speaker 4:Boom and I knock out all the lights and I break the light switch.
Speaker 2:Now the fucking lights are off.
Speaker 1:That's probably toxic. Okay, so when you say that, I would think that's a problem, that's kind of what with Right, yeah, yeah, cause.
Speaker 3:Then it's like you know that, yeah, well, it's a behavior.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would only say this far, I would have to agree to it I've never done it, but if if my son or my daughter was doing something and and I asked him not to do that one thing, and they continue to do it and defy me right, then I would definitely say, okay, then you don't deserve to have a door, and then I would take it away.
Speaker 2:And then, when you get, you ready to have it right put it back on.
Speaker 1:I'm not gonna break the door. I'm not gonna do. No, no, no I'm gonna take the hinge pins out, yeah, and I'm gonna put the door away and I know you won't be able to get it back in, even if I leave them out you you're never going to figure it out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, by the time you figure it out, I bet you know, maybe I'll think about you deserving the door back.
Speaker 2:I may?
Speaker 3:have to get a new door. Hell, yeah, yeah, exactly yeah, because it's outdated. Yeah, no, listen, that may be it's wrong, but no, no, no. But that's the thing I don't know.
Speaker 1:Is it wrong? That wouldn't be toxic.
Speaker 2:That's. I'm not a big fan of taking doors off. Take the computer away, shut off the Wi-Fi, take the phone, stuff like that, that stuff, I don't know. I think people have a right to privacy.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah.
Speaker 2:Unless their behavior is self-destructive and you have to be able to watch them and lock them in. But again, if I tell you-, but then they probably should be in a hospital. If you have to take the door off because you're afraid your kid's going to hurt themselves, then they probably need to be hospitalized.
Speaker 3:Right, no, definitely, other than that, that's just me.
Speaker 1:I'm not a big but my thing is it's like saying your daughter. She's cursing at you, right? She's like this is my fucking room.
Speaker 3:I'm try to do all the steps that we're saying, and then you get to that point, you go okay, I'll be right back?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, yeah, no. What are you doing with a hammer and a screwdriver?
Speaker 3:let me show you yeah, yeah, yeah, and then you take the pins out, and then you take the door off and you go when you learn don't know how with his daughter goes.
Speaker 1:She asked him to do something. She goes. Well, where's your checklist? He goes well the last time I remember was you were in a warm house, in a warm bed with covers Check, check, check.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I can't remember who the standup comedian was.
Speaker 1:It was hysterical man. I was like exactly yeah.
Speaker 3:But I mean I again. That's where I would question you know what then my kids would consider toxic. Right? You feel me? Right? Because for me, disciplining and I'm only we only use the door as an example. You know what I mean? Because, like I said, if we're, if you're you're in a funky mood, I get it. Or if I tell you to do something and you're going to be defiant, go up the stairs and slam the door. I let it slide the first time, like yo, don't slam the door anymore, you do it again because you think you're king shit. Okay, now we're having a problem.
Speaker 2:Now the door stays open.
Speaker 3:Now you do it a third time and you know what you can just stay without a door because you're slamming the door. You know it's that punishment. They're going to kick you off when they're not home, and then when they get home and they see it, see, no, I'm more, I guess, the fucking door. But right, I'm sadistic. I think that's why I come in like I'm a little bit yeah, I'm just, I'm still, I'm, just, I'm not about, yeah, I just think.
Speaker 3:I understand. You know what I think it kind of. That's how we were brought up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, because that's the kind of shit my parents would I think there's more to it.
Speaker 2:When you do stuff like that, especially teenagers, you kind of just take away their privacy, and I think they're entitled to that. Yeah, no, you're entitled to the privacy when you go take a shower and listen. The bottom line is at some point our kids may not listen to us, no matter what you do. And then what do you do?
Speaker 2:Right, Like if you tell them if you tell them you can't do this and they do, and you tell them and you're like do you throw them out? Do you do you? You know? Sometimes you can't like.
Speaker 3:But you're still not going to slam the door in my house.
Speaker 1:That's where I'm at. But would that example be the same used in this example, example where, let's say, you borrow the car and you're not supposed to have it, but you get it because of a certain situation and then you drive and you drive recklessly and you hit mailboxes and you put damage on the car and now I'm gonna take away their door. No, no no no, I'm gonna take away the car. You're not gonna drive anymore, but that's different, though, because because you can't be again.
Speaker 2:This is this is me. This is me, this is my opinion. Right Is taking away their car, taking away their phone, shutting off the Internet, stuff like that. That's different. You're taking away an object, you're taking away a privilege. I just don't see a bedroom door as a privilege. I just see a bedroom door as—.
Speaker 3:A basic need.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's part of the basic need. It's like it allows me to go into my space and allows me to close off. I just like would you take a? Would you take the door off the bathroom? No, I wouldn't do that yeah. But it's there's just, there's just privacy Right.
Speaker 2:Then you have to put the sheet up yeah, taking away their car, or taking away their credit card, or taking away you know that's, and that's just it's different, that I think, just like the door, just kind of representsa different aspect of their life and and it's and I know parents that do that I know, people have done that. I just it's not something that okay, that's not something that I I don't know if it's a great idea, cause Then they always know you can just take away their dignity.
Speaker 3:No, I will say, though I think there's an age limit to that. You know what I'm saying. Like, yeah, I'm not going to do it if my daughter is 17 years old. You know what I'm saying? Right, if they were, like, 10 years old, you know what You're staying.
Speaker 2:Sit over there. I'm staying in here, you sit over there. Right, but here you sit over there.
Speaker 3:Right, but if they're going to their room to slam the door, I said that's what my get up is Come out.
Speaker 2:You don't deserve to be in this room right now. You need to come and sit out over here with me.
Speaker 3:Put them in the hallway on the floor.
Speaker 1:Because the room itself is a privilege, not the door.
Speaker 3:The room is their room, it's their space.
Speaker 2:Listen, we always say it's my house, my house, but but we give our kids their room.
Speaker 3:Right, it's their space.
Speaker 2:I can remove them from that space for a little bit, right, right, but eventually, when they go to sleep, when I feel that they're safe, now go up to your room. Go up to your room, because what are you really doing? It really is. It's like a power move, like I can do this.
Speaker 3:Right, well, it's better than me choking the shit out of you. That's kind of how I was going to do it Right again.
Speaker 2:so it's like it's out of your frustration. But you know what? There's really not a purpose to it, except that you're frustrated because you couldn't get your kid to do what you want them to do. That's why parents hit their kids Aside from an instant reaction like get away from the stove or something like that or pulling them by the hair.
Speaker 1:If they're walking down the middle of the street in a car, stop Right but, that's different, because that's the only thing you can grab.
Speaker 2:But when you go and you hit your kid as punishment, it's because you're frustrated that they didn't do what you want them to do and you have no other option, because hitting them really doesn't change the circumstances and you can say well, they won't do it again. But we don't know that. We don't know that because you've, if you've, ever been spanked more than once, right, you've done it again. You've done something again.
Speaker 1:So it doesn't really work. But it also goes to like all right. So kenny and I agree on that, or we we have that in common, I should say, because that's something we'll be like. All right, that's what you know. But that came because our parents kind of did that in a sense.
Speaker 1:So we're getting that from like from this learned behavior so what I want to say also to learn behavior can also be broken right. My dad would get beat for his money, his bike money, or his mother was an alcoholic. She treated him like shit. She beat him all the time. Yeah, he wound up going in the navy, got away from her and then when I was a kid he couldn't hit me and my brother and if he did out of the times, like you said, I could count on my hand. If that many he got sick, he'd have to go run to the bathroom right and throw up because he couldn't like. He didn't like the fact that he was sitting.
Speaker 4:I completely get that. In fact I'm. I'm gonna say, you know, without getting into too much detail, is I use the way I was raised as a blueprint.
Speaker 3:I want not to raise your kids, as you know what I mean.
Speaker 4:You know right, yeah, yeah, and you do eventually I mean, you do figure it out, you know, some people, some people don't, some people just go this way raised, I'm going to raise my parents this way I'm going to beat the shit out of them or I'm going to you know tell them.
Speaker 2:They're an asshole you know or?
Speaker 4:tell them they're worthless because that worked for me.
Speaker 2:I don't know, not if you're telling your kid that you're worthless, because then it didn't really work for you casting right right right, you know when I say that worked for me, you know. But yeah, so we say you know, if you grew up in a, if you grew up in an abusive household, you would more likely be an abusive parent yourself, likely or not? No, because there's there's one of two things yeah, you're going to be, or you're not going to be, shitty I'm not doing that or whatever.
Speaker 4:That's the way it is, yeah again, some people don't wake up when, like I said, the perspective, we were perspective we were talking about you wake, you know you you're raised with and you don't have that perspective. But some people never get that perspective.
Speaker 1:And they wind up turning into the people that did it to them and they wind up doing the same thing to whoever they have, you know, their children, and so on. It's like a domino effect, like I was punished, I'm going to punish you. It's like a domino effect Like I was punished.
Speaker 2:I'm going to punish you. It's like I said before, like that meme or that thing I was saying to my daughter was like they're going to have the opposite of daddy issues.
Speaker 3:Right right right.
Speaker 4:It's not going to happen.
Speaker 2:My dad's father ran off when my dad was 13, stole his bar mitzvah money and left and that was it. And and my father was a fucking amazing father. He was there for us, he, he was loving and caring and affectionate.
Speaker 4:He wasn't his dad, he wasn't grandpa leo, I think that's. I think that's what how people turn lemonade out of lemons.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my dad wasn't like his dad and he wasn't like his mother, but there were some things, of course, that they still wind up having, but that takes time right. So, like for all of us, you get to a point and hopefully you learn and you get into a different space and you're comfortable with yourself and you're not allowing people to do that shit to you anymore. You're like, oh okay yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm done with that and fortunately I am every bit my dad and I'm proud of that. So that's, that's why you won't take the door off the hangers right there you go this was a good conversation, yeah but with that, that's our time for today.
Speaker 3:Alright, that was awesome, so that was cool, ended up on a good note. Thank you, sir. Yes.
Speaker 2:I appreciate you being here, like always. Can't wait for the sports one with Pink Tom that was a good one yeah, yeah, yeah it.
Speaker 4:I don't come up with ideas for topics often, but when I do, you know, I try to come up with a good one the most emerging man in the world.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's you. I don't always drink beers, but when I do, when I do.
Speaker 4:I prefer Dos Equis. Oh look, they got a free advertisement. There you go.
Speaker 3:So with that, thank everybody for listening. Hope you enjoyed this episode. So love peace and hair grease, live long and prosper and go vegan.
Speaker 1:Let's go Mets yeah.
